Riesling’s Big Personality and Germany’s Hidden Wine Gems with Anne Krebiehl

Introduction

How do the soils of Germany change the expression of Riesling in your glass? What would surprise you about the size and of German wine production in relation to other leading wine-producing countries? How is climate change dramatically changing the way Germany cultivates vines?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Anne Krebiehl.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

One of you will win a copy of Anne Krebiehl’s terrific book, The Wines of Germany.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

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Highlights

• What is unique about the landscape of Germany’s wine regions?
• Where does Germany rank globally in terms of volume of wine production?
• Why is it difficult for Germany to compete with larger and more popular wine regions?
• What makes Riesling so polarizing, and why does Anne love writing about it?
• What does Anne mean by her description of wine as “transparent” or “crystalline”?
• How do the different soils of Germany change the expression of Riesling in the glass?
• What does it mean to be an aromatic, semi-aromatic or non-aromatic grape?
• How is climate change impacting Germany’s winegrowing ability?
• Why is Anne obsessed with Pinot Noir?
• Which other notable German grape varieties should you try?
• What would Anne add to a new edition of Wines of Germany?

 

Key Takeaways

• How do the soils of Germany change the expression of Riesling in your glass? Those grown on slate, Anne explains, have a very particular smell, often in combination with a herbal overtone. Limestone has a softer shape. It brings a certain soothing coolness and depth. Whereas Riesling grapes grown on slate is harsher. As Anne says, it’s difficult to describe these things than sensations, because sensations are what they are. Wine is ineffable in the truest sense of the word.
• What would surprise you about the size of German wine production in relation to other leading wine-producing countries? Anne notes that Germany is a surprisingly small wine producer. In Champagne alone, there are about 35,000 hectares. That’s a third more than what is planted in Germany.
• How is climate change dramatically changing the way Germany cultivates vines? Germany is a winner of climate change, Anne says, because it used to be difficult to ripen grapes. Sometimes there would be only two or three vintages within a decade. Now the grapes ripen in every vintage.She believes that the discussion about climate change in marginal climates is outdated and simplistic, such as it’s getting too hot for Riesling in Germany. That’s only if you assume that modern winemakers are using the exact same viticultural techniques of their grandparents. The adjustments are not only in viticulture, but also in the genetic material of the grapes.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

 

About Anne Krebiehl

Sophie Menin is an author and journalist who has contributed to The New York Times, Barron’s, Penta, Departures, Wine Spectator, Edible Communities, Saveur, Tricycle, Punch, B the Change Magazine and Opera News. She earned an MA in Cultural Reporting and Criticism from the Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute at New York University and a professional degree in the Culinary Arts from the Institute of Culinary Education. Her wine writing focuses on the myriad ways that wine connects us with our senses and the rhythms of the natural world. It can be found in her online journal: lifewithwine.com. Sophie lives in New York with her husband and daughter.

 

Bonus Interview – Ottawa Independent Writers | Writer’s Workshop

Highlights

• Mistake 5: Getting sued by friends, family and others for defamation, invasion of privacy or copyright infringement
• What should you think about when writing the comp section – comparative titles – of your book proposal?
• Which factors should you consider when deciding where to start your memoir?

 

About Ottawa Independent Writers

Ottawa Independent Writers (OIW) was formed in 1986 as a venue for people with a passion for creating fiction and non-fiction, for writing poetry and plays, and for stringing words together in a variety of other formats. We are a community for writers to share experiences and learn new aspects of their craft, serving the interests of all writers, from novice to seasoned scribe. We empathize with writers having trouble getting started and we celebrate with those whose works are published. Along the way, we help with the tools and techniques of our craft.

Although the emphasis is on writing, we also focus on the business of publishing, which includes editing, cover design, promotion and marketing, networking, keeping track of finances, and finding a publisher. Writers who need help in any of these areas can be connected with members who can offer advice, or they can be linked to outside experts. OIW’s members are involved in every aspect of the printed and electronic word.

 

Resources

• Connect with Anne Krebiehl
• Ottawa Independent Writers
• Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 201:  Riesling, the Four-Octave Diva + Austrian Wine Revival with Valerie Kathawala
• Resources for Memoir Writing
• My Books:
  • Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce,Defamation, and Drinking Too Much
    • Audiobook:
      • Audible/Amazon in the following countries: Canada, US, UK, Australia (includes New Zealand), France (includes Belgium and Switzerland), Germany (includes Austria), Japan, and Brazil.
      • Kobo (includes Chapters/Indigo), AudioBooks, Spotify, Google Play, Libro.fm, and other retailers here.
    • Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
• My new class, The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever

 

Tag Me on Social

Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:

 

Thirsty for more?

• Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
• You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
• The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How did the soils of Germany change the expression of Riesling in your glass? What would surprise you about the size and nature of German wine production in relation to other leading wine producing countries? And how is climate change dramatically changing the way Germany cultivates vines? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Master of Wine and credible author of The Wines of Germany. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover why too much personality is a problem for Riesling. The ways in which wine is ineffable. Love that word indescribable, and how to trust your palate and follow your own inclinations no matter what people, especially experts, say. Okay, let’s dive in. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:17 Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 296. One of you is going to win a copy of an Kabul’s beautiful hardcover edition of The Wines of Germany that includes full color photographs and maps. All you have to do is email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean dot com and let me know that you’d like to win a copy of the book. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. All right, so yesterday was the official launch day for the audiobook of wine, which on fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much. You can now download it and start listening immediately on Audible.com, which is owned by Amazon. Kobo, the audiobook partner for chapters Indigo and Coles in Canada, as well as on audiobooks.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:36 Com, Spotify, Google Play, libro FM and wherever else you get audiobooks. Part of the power of audiobooks, I believe, is tied into our earliest experiences of stories, long before we could read. Most of us experienced the magic of storytelling through listening. I recall the deliciously cozy feeling of being read to as a child. Audiobooks recreate that special experience of bringing stories to life in a unique way. As a child, it was the rhythm of words carried on the voice of someone we loved. And then our imagination was free to roam when our eyes weren’t tethered to the page. Oral storytelling predates writing by thousands of years. Many of our most revered literary works began as oral tales, such as Homer’s epics, the Iliad and the Odyssey. These oral traditions strengthen tribal bonds and help pass on generational wisdom to the young. When I meet the online trolls face to face in wine, which on fire. My mother’s calm voice reading The Wizard of Oz comes back to me. As a child, my heart raced when the great and terrible wizard was revealed as nothing more than a man without special powers.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:59 I’d rest my small hand on her forearm, the other on the open page, trying to absorb more of the story and her strength. So what happens next with those trolls? Well, you just have to listen to find out. If you started listening to the audiobook, please let me know. I am super nervous about how my voice translated to the narration of this book, and would love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide for the audiobook, e-book and paperback versions at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 296. At the end of my interview with Ann, I’ve included part three, the final part of the bonus excerpt from the Writers Workshop that I hosted recently. You can continue listening after our main wine related interview or skip it. It’s gravy, not the main meal. All right, on with the show. And you’ve described the country as all rivers and slopes. I’m sure it’s hard to generalize. Impossible, maybe.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:06 But what are the major differences landscape wise, that you see with Germany? Maybe talk about the plantings and the steep terraces of, especially along the Moselle and other rivers.

Anne Krebiehl 00:05:17 The rivers and the slopes decisive in German viticulture because before global warming, before climate change, Germany really was a marginal climate. And again, where would grapes ripen? On south facing slopes? What creates a slope is a river that creates a valley. And in those valleys you have slopes. And this is really I mean, Baden is the southern part of the Rhine valley, which then continues into the falls. And in old nomenclature it was known as the Rhine floods. Then comes Rhine has so named after her river. Wittenberg region of Wittenberg is along the river Mecca and its tributaries. The Franken region is all along the river main. And then there are regions that are named after River Mosel, sir. And Hoover. Yeah. And Naha and the Rhine. Gao. So you see, the rivers and the south facing slopes cannot be divorced from wine in Germany.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:22 Right? Absolutely. And they’re stunning. I did visit Moselle, and it was just I mean, it felt like the grapes were on a slope that almost went straight down. It wasn’t a gentle slope at all. We’re not talking rolling hills of Tuscany here. We’re talking about cliff dives, where if you lose your footing, you’d probably roll all the way to the bottom.

Anne Krebiehl 00:06:42 I tell you, this is vertiginous, and I know that word is sometimes overused, but it does apply. It is incredibly steep. Incredibly.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:53 Yeah. I forget who I was talking to. One winemaker. I said, what do you do as harvest ends? He said, we go down along the bottom along the river, and we collect up all the great pickers who’ve landed there. It’s like, oh, that’s pleasant. So there are 13 wine regions in the country. You’ve mentioned 103,000 hectares planted or 255 acres, roughly speaking. Where does that put Germany on the world stage as a wine producer?

Anne Krebiehl 00:07:19 It’s a fairly small wine producer and a niche wine producer.

Anne Krebiehl 00:07:23 Again, I haven’t refreshed my little tables of you know, where exactly it takes its place in the world, but it’s actually not very big. If you think that in champagne alone you have like between 34 and 35,000 hectares. So that’s more than a third of what you have in Germany. And that’s champagne alone. So it’s actually not that much of Germany’s are buying.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:47 Absolutely. And you’ve mentioned, I think, in previous conversations that Bordeaux is bigger than all of Germany in terms of its production, that Germany just produces about 1{83994d7454f8ce68441ea8152244c292227c3db19076e7622c8f5ff92141c35a} of the world’s wines. And it’s very fragmented, because I think of just picking up some other stats that you’ve mentioned, 16,000 estates, and each of those are often only a half hectare to ten hectares. So it’s this multitude of little tiny estates which in wine is great. I mean, it means artisanal, but also means confusing for someone trying to understand it.

Anne Krebiehl 00:08:19 And then many of them. And this is especially true for the South, say regions like Baden and Gutenberg in Germany’s south are dominated by co-operative winemaking.

Anne Krebiehl 00:08:30 And while this in itself is not bad, very often that is a race to the bottom. You know where. It actually makes me very sad when I go to Baden, when I visit my family and I go to supermarket and I see liter bottles of wine and a liter bottle, traditionally in Europe is the cheapest, the cheapest wine, you know, so it’s not even filled in a seven 50ml. It’s in a liter bottle with 1000 mils and it costs like €4.50. Because, I mean, I know this makes Canadians hearts bleed because there is so much excise duty, but in Germany you can buy wine very cheaply, but it’s mass made wine sometimes grown on slopes that are very steep, and the price of what it is sold for doesn’t really cover the cost of production. And in a country that should be making premium wines only because of the fragmented nature of these vineyards and the way Germany can’t really compete in the cheap stakes just because there’s so much regulation, etc., etc. and I don’t know why they do it and they stick to it and until they die and go out of business and you just it’s terrible.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:43 In fact, that is sad. And, you know, with cooperatives, that’s multiple grape growers sort of contributing grapes to one central winemaking facility. And perhaps they’re all branded together under one label as opposed to single estates. And that’s where you get that, as you say, race to the bottom, because they’re very much all about cost and just big distribution, low cost.

Anne Krebiehl 00:10:04 There are fabulous examples in the rest of Europe of co-ops that actually play at the top, so it doesn’t have to be that way. So that’s why it makes me so sad, because you can actually play at a perfect league, or even at a league where you get proper money for your wine. It doesn’t even have to be like that high, but it can just be at a normal level where you could have very decent, delicious, everyday wines and affordable wines that cover the cost of production.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:34 Sure. Understandable. Well, let’s make you happy since you’ve turned to sad. let’s talk about Riesling and the country’s flagship white wine, which ranges.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:42 Of course. We’ve talked about this bone dry desert. Sweet Germany produces 51{83994d7454f8ce68441ea8152244c292227c3db19076e7622c8f5ff92141c35a} of the world’s Riesling, followed by Romania and Washington state. Why is this grape seemingly so polarizing? People seem to love it or hate it.

Anne Krebiehl 00:10:58 So I have an answer for that. A Riesling comes with more baggage than other grapes due to the German history. And, you know, let’s also face it, German history is not something that endears us to the world. So that’s one aspect. The other thing is that people don’t know when they buy Riesling. It’s sweet and they still think it’s sweet. And every time somebody sees a flute shaped bottle, they think it’s sweet, which is not the case. But drilling down further, even with people who like and loved ones, I have friends who want to increase and I believe it is to do. It is a very basic thing that our bodies tell us. So some Riesling always has high acidity, whether it is bone dry or medium or off, dry or sweet. Acidity is its defining feature, and your body decides whether you like that or not.

Anne Krebiehl 00:11:54 And I think it’ll never be everybody’s darling. And you know you can count it. Every few years somebody will come up and predict a Riesling sauce or revival. And I actually don’t think it’ll ever happen because it’s a beautiful mouche and it’s for freaks, despite the fact that it is incredibly delicious to me and to many other people. But you know, it’ll never have mass market appeal, probably because it has too much personality.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:27 That’s fascinating. I like a so-called acid head. It’s probably why I love Pinot Noir and Riesling. I love our acidity. I just think acidity is to wine, is salt is to food. It just elevates or spotlights flavor. But why is it that you love Riesling so much and you write about it so lyrically and.

Anne Krebiehl 00:12:48 Well, it’s because as you can probably tell, I am an outspoken. I also like things that have. I have a personality, so I like other things that have a personality. Nothing about me is namby pamby and I like raw garlic. I like black olives.

Anne Krebiehl 00:13:06 I like anchovies in my food, I love champagne. I mean, acid is wine is boring without acidity, and I like jumping into a cold pool in the morning. I just love that, you know? Yeah, to me, the idea of going into a sauna is I find that difficult. But going into a cold ocean, even if I go very slowly, I find it exhilarating. And so in a way, I like that about it is always exciting. And the other thing, because I’ve just spent 15 action packed days in Austria where the tastings always go like, okay, we start with Elena and then you switch to Riesling. I was visiting estates in order to write tasting notes, and it happened just time and again that you go from Gruner Veltliner, which has a very different set of flavours and a different texture, and it’s fascinating and kind of it’s very different. But then you switch from Kuna to whistling, and then somebody switches on that citrus verve and, you know, it goes from like the entire citrus spectrum is covered from like green lime via pale grapefruit, pale lemon, ripest Amalfi lemon, all to tangerine, all the way to sort of beautifully ripe Clementine and then sometimes even sort of blood orange.

Anne Krebiehl 00:14:33 And I’m turned on by those flavors.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:36 I love that color spectrum. The citrus spectrum you just described. Love that. I’m with you, too. Sounds more like Cabernet. Ocean spray for us Riesling lovers. You’ve also described Riesling as sort of a spotlight wine. Transparent. Crystalline. Like. What do you mean? I’ve heard these terms for some other wines, but most often Riesling. What do you mean? When a wine is transparent or translucent?

Anne Krebiehl 00:15:01 Well, translucent is a word I use a lot also for Pinot noir. Translucent into white wine. Of course, you might think if you take this literally, that yes, you look at a glass of white wine. Of course you can see through it to the bottom of the glass. But what I mean is that there is nothing that is extraneous and masks the wine so that in Riesling, even if it has gone through malolactic fermentation and many wines don’t, and even if it has been fermented in aged wood, but particularly in stainless steel or in neutral wood, you almost you are confronted with something that is almost naked.

Anne Krebiehl 00:15:40 And when that line comes from stony soils, that is even more so. Sometimes you feel you are thinking in stone and there is a clarity which is helped along by that acidity. Because acidity to me is like a spotlight and there is no place to hide. And so in order to be good, the wine needs to be very clean. And what do I mean by that? It means that the flavors are direct. Just like when you have a lemon. There are Amalfi lemons in the south of Italy, where you can even eat the peel. And the peel is not bitter. It’s delicious. And you have that like lemon juice. When you taste that, there’s nothing extraneous. It’s aromatic and exquisitely pure. And the Riesling is like that too, in the best cases. And I just love that. And it always has a fragrance without being blousy. So but you ask me what is crystalline? So again, crystalline is a word that to me describes purity and clarity. And it’s about this unmediated feeling of drinking something that’s real.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:45 And you’ve said you can smell the wine making on Chardonnay and contrast. And you referred to malolactic fermentation, which of course is taking those harsh mallow acids and turning them into softer lactic acid. That sometimes happens or often happens with Chardonnays, that and then oak treatment. Is there anything else that’s really pokes out at you in terms of the key differences between, say, Riesling and a typical Chardonnay?

Anne Krebiehl 00:17:10 Well, of course, my own inclinations and my physical inclinations, which I think is something that your body decides. You don’t decide. You can’t decide what you like. You know, we go for something because we are inclined to be, you know. And for me, that was always reasoning. However, having said that, I have tasted numerous Chardonnays that are also crystalline, that are also very pure, where you can taste the pure stone. And while I don’t drink a lot of still chardonnay, I absolutely adore sparkling Chardonnay and love long blondes again, because I get that kind of acid. I get that kind of clarity.

Anne Krebiehl 00:17:50 Despite sparkling wines being, of course, very made wines because they’ve gone through more processes, but they can still preserve that same kind of purity for a long time.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:00 Yeah, absolutely. And you talk about the different soils in which Riesling thrives, especially in Germany, the The granite slopes of the Black Forest, the slate in the Moselle, the limestone and franken. How did these soils change the expression of Riesling in the glass at kind of a high level for you?

Anne Krebiehl 00:18:17 Well, it is difficult to put this into words, but putting this into words is my job. And yet I think rieslings grown on slate have a very, very particular sturdy smell, often in combination with a herbal overtone, and they also have a different shape. I don’t know, I mean, I am as a person, I’m so primed to smell all the time, but the issue is in the garden or on public transport, which could be horrible. But you know, like to me smell is something that is very immediate.

Anne Krebiehl 00:18:49 So I have to make myself think about the shape of the wine. And I actually find it is useful to think about the shape of a line, because it can be linear, or it can be rounded, or it can be kind of naked, or it can be softer. And I find that Riesling grown on limestone doesn’t necessarily have a softer acidity, but it has a softer shape, and it always seems to bring with a certain coolness and depth, almost like a soothing, cooling feeling, whereas missing from slate is harsher. And it’s. As you can see, it’s very difficult to describe these things and sensations because sensations is what they are. And we only have kind of language to describe something that is also immensely personal. So yeah, that’s true. Wine is ineffable in the truest sense of the word. Ineffable.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:45 Yes it is. Wine succeeds where words fail often. Now you classify Riesling as a semi aromatic grape. What does that mean? And what are examples of other semi aromatic grapes? And how would that contrast? What is a fully aromatic grape and are there any non aromatic grapes.

Anne Krebiehl 00:20:02 So there is actually a categorization that isn’t just made up, because grapes in their great skins have compounds that are called Turpin. Now, terpenes are the fragrances of nature. So if you smell rosemary, for instance, or a pine branch or strawberries or many flowers, what you smell are actually tapping. Like for instance, right now in London, the linden trees, lime trees are in bloom. And what you smell is a turkey. So that beautiful, gorgeous smell of linden blossom that only lasts for a week and a half and it’s just so delicious. That is a turkey. And also in citrus peel, when you peel your grapefruit or your lemon, what you smell are turkey. And these terpenes are also in grape skins. And what is beautiful is that they survive that process of fermentation. And so it is the amount of turkey, whether a grape in those grape skins, whether a grape variety is classified as aromatic, semi aromatic or non aromatic. And for instance, Chardonnay doesn’t have that many turkeys or Pinot doesn’t have that many or Pinot blanc.

Anne Krebiehl 00:21:17 So they would be classed as non aromatic grapes. Riesling is semi aromatic and so is a Shenan blanc, but fully aromatic grapes are those where even in a grape that hasn’t been fermented yet, even, you know, like if you have gewurztraminer, which is so aromatic, even the grapes themselves taste delicious because tasting Riesling grapes is actually not that exciting. It’s the Riesling after fermentation that is exciting. But because the tasting Riesling, or just freshly pressed tasting, it’s just incredibly sweet. But if you have, say, Muscat or.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:57 Wood Viognier B1.

Anne Krebiehl 00:21:58 Yes, pioneer is also higher, even though not as expensive as Muscat, but those have incredible aromas in eating grapes is totally yummy.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:10 Well, but kind of robbing the cradle as well. But those grapes be made into wine. Get your hands off them. But yeah, that’s interesting, because the terpenes, as you say, are natural molecular compounds or structures that they can be in the linden tree, but that same structure molecularly can be in the grape skins, which is mind blowing.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:31 We’re not adding limes or whatever little droplets into the wine, it’s there.

Anne Krebiehl 00:22:36 That’s why I feel it’s so legitimate for me to use that citrus spectrum to describe Riesling, because I love it. The you know, this is not fanciful. This is just biochemistry.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:47 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So Riesling loves a cool climate, as we know here in Canada. And how will climate change impact Germany’s ability? You hinted at this earlier, but how will it impact Germany’s ability to grow Riesling, or at least the same style of Riesling? Or are just the techniques going to change?

Anne Krebiehl 00:23:06 Well, first of all, I have a lot to say. First of all, Germany is a winner of climate change because it used to be difficult to ripen grapes and sometimes there would be only like two vintages or three vintages within a decade where grapes ripen. So, so far, climate change. Germany has been a winner of climate change because now there are no more vintages that don’t ripen grapes. And just to put this into context, imagine you work your derriere off on a steep slope like that and then your grapes don’t even ripen.

Anne Krebiehl 00:23:40 Imagine how awful that is. Yeah, and that used to be the daily bread of many, many, many winemakers. And it’s actually the poverty of many Mosel winegrowers that inspired a very young Karl Marx. So he saw poverty, you know. So just as a cultural aside, but now back to climate change. There are people. Oh, Germany will get too hot for now. I don’t think so at all, because a where have you been in the world? Have you ever been to Australia? So duh. Then you must think that over the past 300 years of viticulture, it evolved. Everything you did in the vineyard was geared towards ripening your grapes down to the selection of genetic material. You would plant your vines on a rootstock. That would be able to deal with a lot more water than there is today. Then you would graft onto that rootstock a clone of something that would clock up sugar, that would get rid of its acidity, that would ripen within a certain time, and then you would put your vines into a trellis and remove the leaves, and you would plant them into the direction so they catch every last little ray of sunshine.

Anne Krebiehl 00:24:58 Every single thing was geared to achieving brightness, and now you just need to think, okay, how do I dial some of this stuff back? How do I shape my fruit? When do I prune? How do I prune? What is the shape of my canopy? The canopy are the leaves and the shape of the vine plant that also ripens its fruit. And so, you know, there was a ripeness was fetishized in German because it was so hard to ripen. People loved every little extra degree of sugar in those grapes. And I think a lot of the time that entire discussion about climate change in marginal climates is just a lot of old codswallop because, you know, of course it’s getting too bloody hot for Riesling in Germany if you did exactly what your grandfather did. But the adjustments need to be not only in viticulture, but down to the genetic material of the grapes, because there is great material that doesn’t clog up tons of sugar. You know, there are metal selections that retain acidity, and there are lots of things you can do to act in the vineyard in your cultivation.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:11 And Maso selection is that grape selection?

Anne Krebiehl 00:26:14 That would be a mussel selection would not be a single clone, but a collection, a genetically diverse collection of planting material. And I would get very annoyed when even winemakers talk such crap, because there is a lot you can do. I’m saying this fully acknowledging that climate change is the single most difficult challenge for viticulture across the world, but it’s solutions. You know, it’s not like, oh, it’s getting too hot for Riesling. Let’s plant Shannon or let’s plum, whatever. That’s the wrong approach. And actually a stupid approach because the solutions are elsewhere.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:56 That’s an interesting perspective and I agree. What about ice wine, though? It used to be three out of four harvests that they could make ice wine in Germany on average, I believe, correct anything that’s wrong here, but are they still able to make ice wine consistently or to that level every ten years?

Anne Krebiehl 00:27:12 Well, I actually, I’m afraid I cannot verify any statistics because I have never looked at Icewind statistics and the frequency of when it was able to be made.

Anne Krebiehl 00:27:24 But then there already were headlines like, oh, Icewind is a thing of the past, and then another bloody year old along with Shitty Frost. And there you were. So what climate change means is not that it’s in one way, yes, it’s getting progressively warmer, but it’s also getting far, far more volatile. And yes, so you have frost. And actually earlier this year you had tremendous spring frosts that were just some of the worst frost that you had since, you know, in the past 40 years. So, you know, no, spring frosts are still a risk. Ice five is still possible. So I just don’t want to, you know, these are some lazy assumptions that people make and that lend themselves to some dramatic headlines. But please, you know, sing before you write.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:15 True. Check your facts. My stats are out of date, but what I used to hear about five years ago was that Germany, on average every ten years, would make ice wine every 3 to 4 years.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:24 I only know this because I’ve written about Canadian ice wine. Whereas we were blessed with extreme cold year after year, we’d make it every year. I think that’s still the case, but who knows what’s happening lately? Now we both share a passion for Pinot Noir. Why are you obsessed with it, Anne?

Anne Krebiehl 00:28:40 Because it was the first grape that I fell in love with. And because to me, it is an incredibly sensuous grape. And it occupies a place in the wine world that is unique. because it doesn’t conform to your usual red wine, and I love that it has high acidity. It is beguiling in so many respects. It is never mouth puckering because it’s a very thin skinned grape and therefore always has lovely tannin. And I mean some pinot noirs that are made like this, but they are not the ones that are my favorites. It’s never a powerhouse. It’s always something that is, yeah, to me, sensuous.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:27 Absolutely. And you’ve described it as psychoactive I think in one of your discussions.

Anne Krebiehl 00:29:33 Well I think alcohol is a psychoactive substance.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:37 It’s true.

Anne Krebiehl 00:29:37 And so I would describe wine as psychoactive but in a different way from other drugs. Because alcohol is a drug, it’s a poison, but it helps us relax. It helps us open up to a certain degree and then it becomes too much. But we cannot deny the fact that wine occupies a very special place and is, in a way, a socially acceptable drug. And neither can we deny drunkenness or all the dangers that come from alcohol. But I think because wine was part of European civilization before distillation was known, and before beer became more widespread through the discovery of the preservative qualities of hops. And so wine occupied a very special place, always because it was psychoactive and because there wasn’t even an aspirin you could take to dull anything. And that’s why, in sort of pre-Christian times, alcohol was always part of the ritual. And then as Europe was Christianized, that came along with it and actually wrote an amazing book that traces the story of wine from its pagan taboo to its complete adoption, and by Christianity, because, of course, we know that in Christianity wine is the blood of Christ.

Anne Krebiehl 00:31:03 And, you know, so it goes from taboo to absolute sacred liquid. And that that shows the importance of wine. And, you know, wine always attracted taxation, wine always attracted legalization or attracted legal regulation, and it had a place in ritual. And it now has its place in Christianity, a central place. And I think that is because it was one of the first psychoactive substances, and that’s why it occupies such a special cultural place, because we humans change as we consume it. And, you know, for better or worse.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:41 Absolutely reminds me of that book by Michael Pollan, How to Change Your Mind. Except he’s writing about drugs like LSD or something. But it is about your.

Anne Krebiehl 00:31:49 Mind on plants. Like. Yeah, exactly. It’s caffeine and what else. Yeah, but it is amazing. And I’m a great Michael Pollan fan. Yes, yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:59 Botany of Desire and The Omnivore’s Dilemma. They’re wonderful books for anyone who’s wanting to trace those kind of food journeys. So I’ll just summarize a little bit because the time is flying by.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:10 It’s been awesome. But Germany is the third largest producer of Pinot after France and California. Of course, France not only has Burgundy, but also champagne, where it’s big part of the blend. In Germany it’s called Burgundy. Is that correct?

Anne Krebiehl 00:32:23 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:24 Speak for gender. What is that umlaut? Those two little dots. How do we handle pronunciation when we see that?

Anne Krebiehl 00:32:30 So don’t these umlauts only exist for vowels? So r becomes a e doesn’t have an upload, but then less o becomes o and o becomes two. It’s just like accents in French, but Burgundy Burgundy is the German name for Pinot, and so Burgundy means late Pinot because it’s later ripening, then its white cousins, and then Burgundy is Pinot gris and vice, Burgundy is Pinot blanc. And then there’s also Burgundy, meaning early keynote, which is that known in France’s Pinot madeleine as a slightly earlier ripening mutation of Pinot noir. It’s also a very great.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:14 All the Pinot family. And would you say that two of the underrated German grapes or wines are Sylvana and the Sect? The bubbly, the German bubbly?

Anne Krebiehl 00:33:23 Oh, Sylvana is a speciality of Franken, and there’s also a lot of it grown in Rhine, Hessen, and it’s one of those former workhorse grape varieties that are like Cinderella.

Anne Krebiehl 00:33:38 Once she gets to dress up and go to the ball, she will dazzle and symbolize embarrass the opposite of wrestling, because wrestling always has these aromas of the jazz hands. And you know, Silvana is a lot more quiet but just is expressive and in the right hands is green and gorgeous. It’s a light bodied white wine that can express where it came from very well, especially in Franca.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:04 And you’re also a fan, of course, of the German Bubbly bubbly sect.

Anne Krebiehl 00:34:08 But have a fabulous and illustrious history. Just. Well, again, I know we are running out of time, but there are now great traditional method sects in Germany made, some of which is some kind of USP for Germany, but then also made from Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. And some of these wines are just gorgeous. Gorgeous. And I drink a lot.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:35 Is there anything you’ve discovered since that you’d add to a new edition of The Wines of Germany?

Anne Krebiehl 00:34:40 I don’t know.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:41 Maybe it hasn’t been out long enough.

Anne Krebiehl 00:34:43 I could probably hear it came out in 2019.

Anne Krebiehl 00:34:46 And there are, of course, I mean, the Germans are in the middle of changing their law, and I just dread even getting my own head around that again once they finalized it, and then I would probably be able to add different producers. And there’s just so much there. And it’s Yeah. So, I’m starting to, I don’t know.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:07 Probably the new wine lore, but that’ll just give you a headache. So we’ll get back to Riesling and happier topics as we wrap up. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention in? Because I really appreciate your time with this. It’s been a wonderful discussion with German wines.

Anne Krebiehl 00:35:23 I have spoken so much that my brain seems to be drained of oxygen. I think you need a drink. I think I do, and I’m very happy to report that I’ve got some Austrians and some French champagne chilling. Excellent is, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:43 Friday evening. Your time?

Anne Krebiehl 00:35:44 Yes, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:45 Yes, exactly. That’s great.

Anne Krebiehl 00:35:47 It’s funny.

Anne Krebiehl 00:35:48 It’s the weekend. And the weekend will begin very soon because I’ve had a tough and hard week. Yeah. So what do I want to say to people who actually tune in to wine related program, whether they listen to it or whether they watch it, is just trust your own palate and follow your own inclinations no matter what people say. Because no matter where you look in the wine world are things of joy and beauty, and we only need to look at the news to see what kind of weird world we’re living in. And probably the goddesses have given us wine so that we can cope, so that we can cope and enjoy and learn Learn something about those beautiful places around the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:34 Absolutely, yes. And where can people find you in your book online. And it’s.

Anne Krebiehl 00:36:39 On Amazon. It has the very imaginative title of The Wines of Germany.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:45 That’s good.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:45 For SEO.

Anne Krebiehl 00:36:47 And I am on social media as an image, you know. Yeah. So I should be easy to find.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:54 Absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:55 And we’ll put links in the show notes for how to reach you. And I want to say thank you. Goodbye. For now, in terms of wrapping up this conversation, I loved it. I hope that we can share a glass of Riesling or Pinot Noir or both next time in person, but thank you so much for this.

Anne Krebiehl 00:37:11 Well, thank you, Natalie. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:14 Okay. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:20 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Anne. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how do the soils of Germany change the expression of Riesling in your glass? Those vines that grow on slate and explains have a very particular smell, often combination with an herbal overtone. Limestone, however, has a softer shape. It brings a certain soothing coolness and depth, she says. Whereas Riesling grapes grown on slate are harder or harsher. It’s difficult, she believes, to describe these things as sensations because sensations is what they are. Wine, for her, is ineffable in the truest sense of the word.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:06 Number two, what would surprise you about the size of German wine production in relation to other leading wine producing countries? Well, and notes that Germany is surprisingly small on the world scale of wine production. In champagne alone there are about 35,000 hectares. That’s a third more than what is planted in all of Germany. And number three, how is climate change dramatically changing the way Germany cultivates vines? Germany is a winner in climate change and says because it used to be difficult to ripen grapes, sometimes there would be only 2 or 3 vintages within a decade. Now the grapes ripen in every vintage. She believes that the discussion about climate change, however, especially in marginal climates like Germany’s, is outdated and simplistic, such as it’s getting too hot for Riesling in Germany. That’s only if you assume that modern winemakers are using the exact same viticultural techniques of their grandparents. The adjustments are not only in viticulture, but also in the genetic material of the grapes. In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Anne, links to her website and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:25 No matter where you live. You can also find a link to take a free online wine and food pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash class. That’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 296. Email me if you have a SIP tip question or would like to win a copy of Ann’s book, The Wines of Germany. I’d also love to hear from you if you read my book or are listening to it at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. If you missed episode 201, go back and take a listen. I chat about Riesling, that four octave diva with author Valerie Walla. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:14 Everything can do everything. People need to stop talking about it in a defeatist way and talk about it as the world’s great white wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:23 You call it a four octave diva. Are you referring to the stylistic range from bone dry to sweet to all kinds of textural things and weights.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:35 Depending on where it’s grown, how it’s grown, it can be everything. It can be something dancing and lacy and sparkling. It can be something unctuous and serious that needs 30 years of age. You can make an orange wine out of it, and you can play with its tannins in various directions. So I am a big believer. It would definitely be my desert island one.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:01 And now here’s the third and final part of the bonus excerpt from the writers workshop I hosted recently. We explored topics such as mistake number five, getting sued by friends, family, and others for defamation, invasion of privacy, or copyright infringement. That is just not fun. We also explore what should you think about when writing the comp section, comparative titles of your book proposal, and which factors you should consider when deciding where to start your memoir. You won’t want to miss next week. When I chat with Matthew Goffin about the trends and changes in Ontario wines. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Germany.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:50 It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash podcast. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps an ineffable German Riesling. Mistake number five is getting sued by friends, family and others for defamation, invasion of privacy and copyright infringement. This is a question I get asked a lot. So a few things to keep in mind. Heroes versus villains. No one’s a hero. No one’s a villain completely. Except that everyone is the hero of their own story. So when you are talking about people that you might think of as the villain in your story, or someone who may have wronged you. See if you can find some positive things about them, or at least one positive thing. This is not to create false equivalency. This is to create characters that are believable and to make you, as the narrator more credible and to get the reader on your side.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:04 Because if you say bad, it’s just again, lacks credibility and you will not have the reader on your side. So just think about that. At first. We write heroes and villains and heroes and villains, but then we need to get much deeper than that and say, my villains have really outstanding traits that are admirable business savvy, charisma, whatever it is. My heroes and me, especially as the narrator, has some pretty serious flaws as well. Give grace to all of the characters in your book, the people in your book. Notice I say characters. They’re real people, but you have to think about that. I told my partner, you’re becoming a real character in my life. And he just rolled his eyes at me, was like, okay, yeah, all right. You’re into it. Give the grace and the benefit of the doubt if you want it yourself. I always think they were doing the best they could with what they had or knew at the time. That doesn’t mean we forgive egregious behavior crimes, things that are unethical.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:04 But we step back and think, I’m human. I’ve done things that I’m ashamed of. For reasons that people did not understand. Could that be possibly true with other people? There are always rewards for a bad situation, for staying in a bad marriage, for doing all sorts of things. So again, it’s not the black or the white. It’s all the shades in between where we find humanity. At the same time, you don’t need to take too much responsibility. There’s points in my book where I think, what if I did this and this? The trolls wouldn’t have. They would have been satisfied, would they really? And the false equivalency that I’ve already that two sides ism. You’re not doing journalism in a memoir. You’re telling your story. So you do not have to be completely balanced as you would in the New York Times of The Globe and Mail. Be toughest on yourself. It’s not a masochism, but it’s your story. You also have the power of the pen. Of course, the most self-critical, because the reader will get the most out of that.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:05 But also in the end, the reader will be on your side. Do not worry. Don’t mind. Read other people or impute intentions. Don’t editorialize about others. Why did I think they were doing that? Don’t bother with that. You can quote what they said. You can say what they did, and it’s far more credible and tighter writing than saying he was so callous to do this and that. How about just saying what he or she did and then maybe how you felt, but not the editorializing. Avoid labels like cruel or emotional abuse. They can have legal implications. Here’s a really nifty trick that one of the lawyers taught me. I had two legal reads. He said instead of saying she made me feel terrible. Slight rephrase. I felt terrible when she did this. No one can argue with your feelings. It’s a slight difference, but it’s legally better. It’s more powerful when readers make their own conclusions or draw their own conclusions. This is the show tell my ex-husband shifted the child support payments from my bank account being automatically deposited into my teenage sons bank account without telling me.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:22 I did not editorialize. I let the reader come to their own conclusions about what that behavior says. Tell the truth. The truth is, you understand it. Acknowledge when you’re fuzzy or if someone recalls it differently. You can say, I don’t quite remember this, but this is how I think it happened. That’s okay. You don’t have to have everything locked down. It provides balance and credibility and humanity. We’re all human, just doing the best we can. Don’t tell someone else’s story. People are only involved in your memoir to the extent where they intersect your story. You don’t go any further. You don’t say, oh, and he was the product of an orphanage that doesn’t need to be in the book. Only to the extent you intersect and they can write their own memoir, change names, physical characteristics, and company names, change them all. Be one layer removed because you don’t know what’ll happen in the in the future. I had a little Easter egg. had hints, but I did not outright say it about my ex-husband and a relationship that I did not know for sure he was having, but I gave her flaming auburn hair and eyes of Emily Green.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:34 Like the Jolene song by Dolly Parton. So you can go listen to that. Compressed timelines and composite characters are always debatable in memoir. I think you can up to a point, as long as it doesn’t really mess around with the facts. Again, this is not autobiography, so if you want to tighten the timeline or if it’s a minor character, you have three friends and they’re not best friends and you just don’t want to have the reader going. I’m trying to keep track. Is it Lily or Francine or who said that? I do believe that a certain tightening of timelines and characters can be done without sacrificing the truth. Always put an author’s note or disclaimer. It will not protect you from lawsuits, but it will help that note at the beginning. This is the best of my memory, all the rest of it in my book you can find mine. I reworked it 27 times, but it’s important to get a legal read even if your publisher won’t pay for it, I got to. I can recommend a great lawyer, by the way.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:32 Here’s the thing that came out of that. So I’ve been naming them trolls. So I was quoting what these men were saying online was had a lot of sexual description of me as a woman, and misogyny was baked right into everything they were saying. So I was quoting them and I had changed their names because I thought, don’t feed the trolls, don’t give them more attention. But the lawyer said, if you’re going to quote what they said online or anywhere, you have to use the real name or you’re violating their copyright. I thought, oh my God, okay. But in the end, I came to the conclusion that they deserved full credit for what they did instead. So I named them, but not all family and friends. All right.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:13 Next.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:14 this is an Lamont’s phrase. Bird by bird. One of the books I recommend. If you wanted me to say something nice about you, you should have been nicer to me. I love that anyway. People debate back and forth. Should I publish? Should I say this, should I? You have to debate or you have to come to a conclusion how big your why is, how important this story is to you, how big your brave is.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:35 And I’m not saying you’re a coward if you don’t tell your story, because maybe it’s not a safe story to tell, but you have to weigh this. Is telling your story bigger than your fear of the fallout. Or think ahead to how you’d feel years later not publishing it. Do you have to weigh those things off for yourself? What do you expect readers to take away? That was in the book trailer video? For me, it’s a piece of themselves better understood. Dry extract is a winemaking term. It’s when wine is boiled down to its essence, all the moisture is evaporated. It’s the extract. And I think that’s in us as humans when life boils us down to our essence. And I love this quote, and it really applies to memoir. In the end, we’re all just walking each other home. We often say feel less alone memoirs. But I love this quote. And then I have a few books, courses and resources. Save the Cat. the story and the situation. They’re very different for memoir.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:35 It’s a great book by Vivian Gornick. Bird by bird. Wired for story by Lisa Kron. The Art of memoir, Mary Karr. Oh my gosh, she’s fabulous. The Memoir Project Marian Roach also teaches courses, has a fabulous podcast. Jane Freedman has really amazing workshops. They’re only about $25.

OIW Host 00:50:54 That was great, Natalie, thank you so much. We already have a question in the chat. And the question is the mistake of five meant to be changing the names or for not changing them?

Natalie MacLean 00:51:07 Okay, mistake number five. So I had several slides under mistake number five. Mistake number five was getting sued. So one of the tips is to change the names of all your friends and family, even if they’re fine with being in the memoir. It’s one layer of removal. Yes, people can Google and find out who my husband was, whatever. But it’s one layer and most people won’t. Even though mom loved the book, it’s dedicated to her. People can start to make the network connections of who’s who, so I do advise changing everybody’s name, except for people that you are quoting on the public record, like on a website or in a magazine or in a book.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:46 If you’re using quotes like that that aren’t just friends and family and you’re concerned about copyright, then you need to quote the person’s name and publication.

OIW Host 00:51:56 Okay. There is another question by Robin, who says, I’m curious to know more about how you wrote your comp section of your proposal. I really liked your style.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:06 Oh, that was at the beginning of the project, so I still feeling around for what is this book? So I put it like they were all meeting in a bar, all the books and talking to each other, but the comp section was a little bit more meaty than that. And that’s just one section of a book proposal. There’s a course you can take, a book proposal. Magic. She has an amazing course. Linda, forget her last name.

OIW Host 00:52:30 Thank you. Natalie. Jill has a question. Jill. Did you want to ask it? I do, thank you.

OIW Participant 00:52:36 Thank you for this, Natalie. I typed so fast to try and write down everything you said.

OIW Participant 00:52:42 Natalie, I am writing a memoir that is looking at two different to the same core. So part one is I’m going blind. Okay? And how I have to adapt to a whole new way of doing things as my vision gets worse. The other side of the coin is what I didn’t expect. I would be going blind, but I didn’t expect how different people would treat me when they saw my white cane. Wow. I didn’t expect to be assaulted as often as I’m assaulted. Oh, and so it’s not a bad thing happens. This is how I learn and grow. It’s a bad. Things keep happening. Oh, yeah, and I am struggling with. I don’t want to be repetitive. I don’t want to lose the reader going. We get it. You keep getting assaulted. And so I’m really struggling and I’m wondering if you have some advice.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:50 Wow, that is a challenge. What a great story. Though. You have a hook, you have a strong like the story and the situation there.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:59 I guess maybe you want to decide what your time frame is because as I said, a memoir is a slice in time. So usually it’s about a year or maybe two years. So you want to say, okay, put a container on it so the assaults might continue. And that’s fine because as I said, you don’t need to end up with a nice shiny red bow. And everything’s happy now and everything’s fine. It’s not you still are getting assaulted, sadly. But there’s the story of you going blind and adapting, and then the first assaults or whatever, and how you had to deal with those, and then perhaps after that it’s okay. And then I have to deal with this ongoing. The time frame could be the container for it. Yes, that makes sense.

OIW Participant 00:54:46 That does.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:47 Okay, because you have to end it somewhere. As I said, it’s really unfortunate that it continues, but you’re probably better equipped to deal with it. So you have changed. People are looking for the transformation.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:59 Yes. The first thing that happened to you is, oh my God, I’m going blind. And then you have to deal with that and then you have to deal with, oh my God, I’ve been assaulted and I’ve been assaulted again. What are the tools and reflections and strength that you gain? Even though it continues to happen? You’re better able to deal with it now. And let’s put some time bumpers on it.

OIW Participant 00:55:22 Okay. The other big encouragement I took from your talk tonight was how much of this is creative nonfiction? Because I don’t want to drag the reader through the fact that it took years and years and lots of therapy to come up with tools for what do I do when I’m assaulted and how do I respond and whatever. And so I can be creative.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:51 Yeah. And compress the timeline.

OIW Participant 00:55:53 Press the.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:53 Timeline. Do you want to have a few therapy sessions in there? I did in my book. They all didn’t happen so neatly. Yes, but people understand that and it doesn’t really make a difference if the therapy happened over six years, to me, it doesn’t.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:08 I’m fine with that. What I want to learn is your story and how you what you did with it. Yeah.

OIW Participant 00:56:13 Thank you. Thanks very much.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:15 Yeah, absolutely.

OIW Host 00:56:17 That’s great. Thank you. Natalie I think. Nevin. Nevin, did you have a question for Natalie?

OIW Participant 00:56:22 I put a little comment when you were talking about, not making people a completely evil don’t do a Nancy Drew novel. Yes. True. Yeah, Yeah. If Nancy Drew doesn’t like someone person doesn’t like Nancy Drew. That’s the villain. Exactly. And the question I asked is for places I usually use the rule that if this place is well known, like Toronto, you can use it. Other than that, you need to change the name of the place.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:53 Yeah, I think.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:53 That’s a good a really good rule of thumb, especially if you’re talking about a small town where everybody knows everybody. It all depends on your story and how pivotal the details are. Like, yeah, I like that. Toronto is a huge place, and knowing there’s so many different neighborhoods, you can still be anonymous in a big city.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:12 But yeah, no, I agree with you, Nevin. And with the heroes and villains, it’s just yeah, the the whole like Nancy Drew, it’s either you’re a good guy or bad guy. It It’s just real life isn’t like that, so it’s good to blend.

OIW Host 00:57:25 Thanks, Nevan. So we have Pearl, who is asking if you can read a short excerpt about five minutes. I think that would be great. I’m not sure we have the time for that though. It’s up to you. It’s up to you, Natalie. Or you know what?

Natalie MacLean 00:57:40 I would love to do that. I was just mindful of your all your time if we want to take any other questions first and then I’ll read the excerpt, but people can feel free to go. Maybe leave the excerpt to the end.

OIW Host 00:57:51 Yeah, that’s a great idea. I think we have time for maybe two more questions, and I’d love to squeeze one in there. Actually, you mentioned that you started your memoir in three different places, which I find fascinating because a lot of times I think the big challenge is where exactly do I start? And so you chose three and then you said your editor’s picked one.

OIW Host 00:58:12 Did I hear that correctly or did you go with all three?

Natalie MacLean 00:58:15 So this is while I was struggling to write it, even before I started to get into developmental edits. Which is your first type of edit? The third one was what I was reading. Like I was going to start off with bang, I get this email, oh my God, I’m a thief! And then no, I have to back up. So that was the third one. Was backing up save the cat first, then go to the and then continue, then back up the timeline. But the other two were just do I start with. At first we were going to start with getting back on the dating scene, because the beginning of my year chronologically was my husband of 20 years asking for a divorce, and I felt blindsided. So do I start with where I get back on the dating scene? Because that section is very funny and it’s light hearted and it’s almost chick lit, and it’s the sex and the city stuff, but it’s not the actual heart of the book.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:13 And if someone starts there and then they go down this sort of dark tunnel, it’s what happened. So like we were thinking, do we ease people into it? Is that better marketing wise? But it wasn’t the A story. The A story was what was happening online, my career and so on. The B story was the divorce and dating again and all the rest of it. So that was the second place I started. And then the third place I started was going on the Social on CTV, because I’m a regular for their wine expert segments and going on TV knowing that the trolls could attack me because back then and I don’t know if they do it as much anymore, but they would run live Twitter feeds. It was a live show nationally, and so that scene is still in the book, but it’s not number one. So we had to play like, why would we start here? Why would we start there? What is this book about? Because the you will work the most on your first chapter, in your last chapter in any book.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:11 I don’t know if that answered the question, but that’s what we were struggling with and the reasoning we went through. Why? Why this one? Not that one.

OIW Host 01:00:19 That’s very helpful. Okay, good. Yeah. No, that’s. Yeah, that’s very helpful. Yeah. Thank you. Big thank you to Natalie for such an incredibly informative and educational evening and fun. For those of you who want to stick around. Yeah. Natalie. Why not?

Natalie MacLean 01:00:34 Sure. And if I didn’t get to your question, just email me Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. The one part that I didn’t get to. And since you’re all so patient, I’ll read you the final scene. You have to have the background, a little bit of reading the book to know the stakes. But on social media, as I’m sure you’re aware, a lot of it is, as I say, keyboard courage. People say and do things they would never say and do in person, and meeting these people in person was just anyway.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:09 Maybe I’ll read that part where I go there, because this is, I believe, the climax of the book, which is like the turning point of almost like the resolution. So it’s called Behind the Curtain. The Wizard of Oz is woven through the story a lot, along with witches to me, which is a strong woman who’s gone through the fires of life and emerge stronger, wiser, fiercer. She’s not just a bitter old woman who drinks a lot of wine and owns a lot of cats. This chapter is called Behind the Curtain. Don’t go, Daniel said softly. He put his arm around my shoulders. We stood on the back deck in the April sunshine, breathing in the fresh green spring air. It smelled like everything could start over. I had mentioned I was thinking about attending a large tasting in Toronto in a few weeks time. The men who had attacked me on social media for months before would likely be there. I’d never met any of them in person. Daniel didn’t want me to face more harassment.

Natalie MacLean 01:02:09 The mob’s maelstrom had subsided only a couple of months earlier. I still had the heart murmur. I developed a heart murmur in response to this and a constant dread every time I went online. Should I even return to that hostile world? Sometimes I still thought I should go back to the safety of marketing and a packaged goods company. Then I remembered what I’d lose the freedom I found working for myself. The natural high of writing and my love of wine. Sensory delights beyond the buzz. Running away from the wine world was also an unnecessary defeat. After all, I’d survived the voices of mum and her teacher friends singing Helen Reddy’s I Am Woman came back to me. She was a schoolteacher, single parents, so they would have parties every Friday night in our trailer because she didn’t want to hire a babysitter. So I’d hear them singing I am woman. At the beginning of the book I say, I am woman, watch me poor. These men had bent me, but they did not break me. Since the attacks, many women in the industry had privately shared their own experiences of sexism.

Natalie MacLean 01:03:17 What I did now mattered as much for them as it did for me. If I don’t go, then they’re still bullying me, he said. Go get them tigers. I smiled tightly, my throat was dry at the thought of walking into that tasting room at the head office of the Lcbo. I could barely swallow. I emailed Sherry Darling. She was a fellow wine writer, hoping that she was going to attend, so I’d at least have one friendly face there. She couldn’t make it, but sent back this story When former disciples targeted Buddha in the temple one day, calling him names, Buddha did nothing and said nothing. The loyal disciple said, Buddha. They were yelling at you and showing you disrespect. Why did you let them do it? You did nothing. You let them get away with it. Buddha said if they had come with a basket of oranges, a gift that I did not accept. What then? The disciple said they would have had to leave with their oranges. And Buddha said exactly.

Natalie MacLean 01:04:13 They came with their abuse. They stayed with their abuse and they left with it. I do not accept it. This helped, but I still imagine walking into that room, their heads turning, their eyes narrowing. What would they say? It’s Friday morning. The day of the tasting. I get out of the taxi and walk across a busy parking lot. Delivery trucks back up and beep the concrete. Lcbo office is penitentiary grey. Inside. Security buzzers go off door Slam. I’m thinking L.A. what is it? That L.A. law thing? Boom, boom, whatever. It was law and order. But it’s trying to show, not tell, right? Anyway, I check in with the gruff guard at the front desk who asks for ID, then pushes the sign in sheet toward me. I see the names of seven of the men who had been vicious online. My heart lurches. I’m about to walk into a hellish furnace. The real life version of the comment section. The guard gestures upward, mumbling, fourth floor.

Natalie MacLean 01:05:15 I want to drag him with me as a bodyguard. I get into a small creaky elevator, a metal coffin on the fourth floor. I walked down a long hallway. When I grabbed the doorknob to the tasting room, it just spins. My hand is slippery with sweat. I wipe my palms on my pants, then use both hands to get it open and I slide into the room. There they are. There are 13 men. No women. I recognize these men from their social media profiles. As I look around at them, I remember their malicious comments, each one a knife wound. Mr. Wikipedia, by the way, this guy created a Wikipedia page about me. He was a former journalism professor who put all of this stuff in and then summarize my career in two sentences, Mr. Wikipedia. Dean Tudor, seemingly made of gristle with a grey moustache and beard, is a few feet in front of me across the room, master Sommelier John Jabot wears a buttoned up waistcoat similar to his Twitter picture, in which he’s emerging from a red sports car.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:22 In the corner is Michael Pincus with an intense, black eyed stare. I breathe in slowly. They’re smaller than I imagined them. Or am I just taller than I thought I was? Mom’s calm voice reading The Wizard of Oz comes back to me. My heart raced when the great and terrible wizard was revealed as nothing more than a man without special powers. I’d rest my small hand on her forearm, the other on the open page, trying to absorb more of the story and her strength. Now I feel the strength of my own story. I pull myself up to my full height, as the famous line from the movie echoes in my mind. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. The online curtain has been pulled back. I stand face to face with those whose voices had boomed on social media like angry giants. Now that they can’t hide behind their online avatars, they’re silent. I imagine at symbols on their foreheads like bull’s eyes. Where is their keyboard? Courage. Pincus looks up, then away.

Natalie MacLean 01:07:31 Tudor coughs. Or did he catch his breath? Zappo seems to choke on his tasting sample. Am I blushing? When I’m stressed, I turn deep red because I have rosacea when I drink wine or even taste it. It makes it worse. I end up looking like a radioactive lobster. Whatever. Let my face show my fire. I stay inside the room for a few agonizingly long seconds, not dropping my gaze. I will not scurry in. I have the urge to click my heels three times. One by one, they drop their gaze. They can’t look at me, it seems, much less say anything. As they lose their voices, I get mine back. The white walls of the room are lined with a tasting counter, holding some 70 bottles of backup infantry, standing shoulder to shoulder. I walk over to an empty space and start tasting, quivering with relief. It’s quite a lineup we have here, I say to one man who wasn’t involved in the online fractious. Yep, a new vintage of sour grapes.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:36 He smiles back at me. See? No, he said, that’s getting rid of your dialogue tags as the day goes on. There are a few whispers I overhear, one grump muttering to another. I guess life goes on. Indeed it does, gentlemen. Duder is making his way down the line of bottles toward me quickly because he isn’t spitting or taking notes Jabo had tweeted at him after a previous tasting. Saw you guzzled two glasses of Krug and expensive champagne on your way out of the tasting room. Some writers missed a chance to taste it. Please forward your notes. At last, he gets to the bottle between my laptop and the wall. He pauses. Coughs. It’s impossible to get it without asking me to move. I stay put even though I’ve tasted all the wines in that area. He coughs again, walks over to another section of the counter, then returns to where I am. Cough. His throat must be getting very sore. I hold my ground. He moves away to another section to taste.

Natalie MacLean 01:09:39 This is the former journalism professor who had been so bold in writing the defamatory Wikipedia page, then bragging about it to his buddies. He’s the one who had fearlessly characterized me as a leather bound dominatrix, urging male critics to ejaculate. Now he can’t even ask me to move down one spot on the counter. Social media had given these men their courage, but when faced with the reality of the woman they attacked, they are silent. As I continue tasting the wines, they keep shrinking in my mind. Why had I been so afraid of them? I’d stayed awake nights thinking of what they’d say next. Why hadn’t I been able to see them for who they were or who I was? Then I remember my favourite scene in The Wizard of Oz. But I imagine the good witch Glinda is talking to me. You’ve always had the power, my dear. You just had to learn it for yourself.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:39 Anyway.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:40 That’s not the end of the book. But that’s near the end. That’s climax.

OIW Host 01:10:45 That’s fantastic.

OIW Host 01:10:46 That’s. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Natalie, thank you so much. I think from all the applause that’s coming, everybody.

OIW Host 01:10:53 Yeah, you’ve.

OIW Host 01:10:54 Got some kudos coming in on the chat. That’s fantastic. Thank you so much.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:59 Thank you. Thank you. And again feel free to reach out to me I’m here happy to help with resources or whatever. I know it can be a lonely journey, but I’m happy to share what I’ve learned.

OIW Host 01:11:09 Thank you so much for your time, for your generous back and forth, and for sharing all your stories with us. It sounds fabulous and hopefully we’ll be seeing you again soon.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:20 Yes, thank you for the invitation and thank you for your attention. I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun, I enjoyed it. Thank you for listening.

OIW Host 01:11:28 Sadly. You’re terrific. Thank you.

OIW Participant 01:11:30 Thank you Natalie.

OIW Host 01:11:31 Thank you. All right. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:41 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:44 Especially.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:45 The secret. full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:50 So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.